Apparently Mean Girls Just Don’t Grow Out of It
July 23, 2008 by Kristen King
Filed under Business
(www.bizchicksrule.com) — The thing about mean girls is that, unless someone smacks them down — hard — along the way, they grow from being mean girls to being mean women. And sometimes, girls who started out nice are so tormented by mean girls that they turn mean as they get older. And then, we all get to work with them. Good times.
This weekend at BlogHer, there was some drama during the closing keynote. I don’t know any of the people involved personally and I couldn’t tell you anyone’s intentions and I’m not going to try. But here’s what happened in super simple terms, from the viewpoint of an objective observer who had never heard of these people — before that day, anyway. One of the keynote speakers, made reference to something that had been said about her by another blogger in the context of a discussion of how readers often don’t see bloggers as real people and how surreal that is. During the audience Q&A, that blogger responded to the speaker. It should have been the end of the discussion.
But tension ensued, and I’m not entirely sure why because I thought it was pretty innocuous all around. It was an amusing post referenced in what I thought was a good-natured comment, along with a funny, though perhaps inappropriately timed, response. Who knows, maybe there’s some history I don’t know about — but what actually happened in that room at that moment, in my opinion, was not that big a deal. Yet the tension level went from 0 to 60 in .02 seconds, Twitter lit up like crazy, and shortly thereafter the blogosphere exploded, so of course, I wanted to figure out exactly why the heck everyone got their panties in a bunch.
I did what every other Internet-addicted woman does when she wants to learn about something: I Googled the original post and searched for comments about the keynote "incident" after the fact. And I was SHOCKED to find that some of the people who I thought were pretty nice when I met them at BlogHer were just ripping these poor women to shreds — about something that really, truly, is not all the drama. Talk about blowing something out of proportion! Are we not adults here? Are we not past the mind set that the only way to feel good about ourselves is to tear other down and mock them in front of all of the other kids on the playground? And after all of that, I still don’t understand what the big flipping deal is.
It got me thinking about stuff I saw in high school, middle school, elementary school, and stuff I saw when I was working, too. Everywhere you go, there are the "cool kids" and the not-so-cool kids. Even if you choose not to participate in that dynamic (and I really, really hope you choose not to participate in that dynamic), you know what I’m talking about. For some reason, those cool kids seem determined to maintain their status — by making sure no one else feels cool anywhere, ever. That is like the least cool thing I can think of. It’s a coolness dictatorship. And the response is for the less-cool kids to find ways to sabotage the cool kids and rob them of their alpha status. (I guess that would be the anti-cool revolt.) It’s like something you see on Animal Planet crossed with the Bolshevik Revolution.
I digress. What I see happening now is that these two women, the speaker and the blogger, are being torn down on blogs for SOMETHING that is NOTHING. And it’s just petty. And it looks stupid. And I’m indignant, because I feel like every time someone complains about how "the man" is holding women back and societal pressures are keeping women from moving forward and it’s about time we had a serious woman presidential candidate, blah blah blah, a bunch of women jump on a bunch of other women and have a catfight and it just makes everyone look bad and we’re back where we started from and we deserve it because this is not the playground and that’s how we are behaving. And I say WE because the rest of us who do nothing about it are just as responsible as the people who are actively propogating it.
We are grown-ups now and this is like so 15 years ago. Fellow BlogHers, we just got back from a conference dedicated toward supporting women in the blogosphere, and here you are talking smack about stuff that’s not any of your business, stirring the pot, and frankly embarrassing the rest of us. You’re old enough to know better. You’re old enough to stop being mean girls.
So, blogging aside, what’s my point? Well, I want to know how YOU deal with the mean girls in your life. Whether you’re a target of mean girls or are around them or, let’s be honest here, if you have mean girl tendencies of your own, how does it affect your life? And are you okay with that?
Some questions to prompt your thinking:
- What do you do when you hear a rumor at work, or anywhere else for that matter? Do you listen to it? Do you ignore it? Do you repeat it?
- How do you react when others are gossiping in your presence? Do you participate? Do you sit by silently? Do you leave?
- Do you ever start or spread gossip and rumors about another woman at work or elsewhere in your life?
- Do you talk about other women when they’re not in the room?
- How do you handle it when you have a problem with another woman in your life? Do you talk to her about it, or do you talk to others about it?
- Do you discuss others’ failures at length, either in a closed group or in public forums?
- Do you mock other women who dress differently, speak differently, make different life choices? Do you participate or enable when others do?
- Do you make a point of bringing other people down?
Those things aren’t funny, and they’re certainly not flattering. Yeah, we all have our moments and NONE of us is perfect. But this is worth making an effort for. And it’s not just about you, or about me, or about this speaker and this blogger. This is about how we as women are cutting one another down and it is unacceptable. Now, what are we going to do about it?
Contents © Copyright 2008 Kristen King
Tags: women in business, women and business, women, woman, business, womens business blog, blogher08, blogher, keynote, mean girls, queen bees, gossip, catty, catfight, dooce, bloggess, hobbit, immature, clique, cool kids, biz chicks rule, kristen king
Hi KK- Do your IRL female friends not do this?
Don’t forget “tall poppy syndrome”- the prettiest, or most successful, or richest, or what not “MUST BE CUT DOWN”. <—and that’s not just women.
I had no idea you had a blog here, btw.! awesome.
“tall poppy syndrome.” I’ll have to remember that.
Honestly, no, my real-life friends really don’t. Or if they don’t do it with me! We all have our moments, like I said in the post, but no, this is definitely an exception and not the rule. Why would I — or anyone, for that matter — want to hang out with anyone who was a habitual hag? ;)
kk
Hey Kristen,
I was at the conference, and was totally confused by the exchange–especially the attempt by somebody to resurrect the topic later when I thought it had died down. But I missed the fallout afterward (and frankly, am glad I did!)
Thanks, Meagan. I was starting to wonder if it was just me!
I didn’t catch the references either, so I didn’t know it was a big deal until later. I still think it was blown out of proportion.
there’s a point being left out of this, and it’s that the blogger apologized to the speaker the night *before* the keynote, at a party, and supposedly all was well. however, that must not have been the case, given that the speaker felt the need to bring the subject up again in the keynote, knowing that the blogger, the subject of her story, would be present and kind of unable to defend herself, as she wasn’t onstage at that point. (granted, she found a mic and *did* defend herself.)
this should have been nothing, but it became something when conflated unnecessarily by the speaker. shame on her.
(and really great post on the entire business. it sucked. i’m friends with the blogger and it hurt, hurt a lot to watch her be battered like a cat toy by the woman who was the speaker, and the major power-holder, in the situation.)
Fantastic write up. Truly. I think it’s time we all took a step back to take a look at ourselves.
Well done. Sounds like someone left her sense of humor at home. Join me in the UNcool revolution!
hmmm, I am not following the “incident” KK, but I am more interested in your take on gossip, etc, because I’ve noticed that my IRL “acquaintances” (don’t want to say friends, more like committee members, fellow volunteers, coworkers, PTA) do tend to talk about each other incessantly. Of course, I assume that if someone is talking about someone else TO me, I assume they’re talking about me elsewhere….
Hey what’s worse than being talked about?
NOT being talked about.
I kid I kid!
PS- sometimes you HAVE to assoc w/hags! It’s not pleasant but it’s life. Being a soccer mom taught me to create a drama filter ;-}
While I like your entry and agree with a lot of what was said by your I believe there something even deeper going on. On the net unlike real life if you say something about certain bloggers and I’m going to just say it, Dooce there’s an amazing amount of backlash ne will recieve. I will say this first hand and not give out my real blog address for fear of what I just said. Heather Armstrong has written me personally because I said I thought she was a good example of a bad mother. I said this on my blog, and low and behold three emails were sent to me for her highness. On top of that her doocelings left me mean comments to the point that I closed down my blog. IRL I can I don’t the president, my children’s teachers, or Angelina Jolie and no one is going to harass me the way that people who are in love with dooce will.
Want to talk about the mean girl(s) I think you need to speak about the massive ego Dooce has. It’s not just a dooce world and we just live in it, it’s our net too.
I feel like Blogher should be called Doocher, because somehow it’s always about her and her friends. If you’re not in with her friends well then you’re just nobody.
Dear Kirsten, this is what happens in the corporate world every day. Put a whole bunch of ambitious, formerly-held-down women in a room and unleash their tongues, and you get what’s called a catfight or a smackdown, you choose.
Men have always protected each others sins and pleasures. Women don’t. Ask any women who her fiercest critics have been, and you have your answer.
It’s the reason men rule the boardroom, we are so competitive and “mean” to each other to use your own words, that I’d rather work in a room full of man eating lions than corporate.
girldom.
We claim to not want divisions based on gender and then have “blogher.” Why not flogher
And if anyone of us, ( even those like me who try to support womens efforts where-ever I go), can say they don’t commit the sins you list below regularly, then I’ll eat both my hat and shoes.
Sex in the city wasn’t a hit because of the sex it was the sharp competitive girl chat that made it a hit.
* What do you do when you hear a rumor at work, or anywhere else for that matter? Do you listen to it? Do you ignore it? Do you repeat it?
* How do you react when others are gossiping in your presence? Do you participate? Do you sit by silently? Do you leave?
* Do you ever start or spread gossip and rumors about another woman at work or elsewhere in your life?
* Do you talk about other women when they’re not in the room?
* How do you handle it when you have a problem with another woman in your life? Do you talk to her about it, or do you talk to others about it?
* Do you discuss others’ failures at length, either in a closed group or in public forums?
* Do you mock other women who dress differently, speak differently, make different life choices? Do you participate or enable when others do?
* Do you make a point of bringing other people down?
yours
Wisequeen.
Kristen,
I missed most of the drama but I do have some thoughts on “other things” that went on at BlogHer that gave me pause… all along these lines. I’m blogging it later – I’ll try to leave the URL.
But what I will say, since I work in a mostly male dominated field (tax law) is that this kind of gossip-y, bicker-y nonsense does not proliferate in the male world. It has made me think – a lot – about the way that I treat other women and the way that I am treated. I have lots of women friends but not so much in my profession. In the workplace, women spend a lot of time cutting each other down. Men spend more time building their own selves up. There’s a big difference (and a smart lesson) there.
Women definitely need to learn to support each other more (even if that support is just NOT tearing each other apart behind each other’s backs). My workplace (funnily enough also a tax law office!) had plenty of women who were super competitive and there were some real mean girls who spent more time gossiping than working. And they wondered why they couldn’t get their work done…
I actually think men are crappy to one another too, just in different ways. All you have to do is Google “Loren Feldman” and “Shel Israel” to see an example of a far nastier and longer-lasting feud happening in the tech blogosphere.
Every time we decide that only women were mean in high school or only women compete at work we are internalizing the “catfight” label…this is my post where I rambled on more about that:
http://homepage.mac.com/elisa_camahort/iblog/C788295036/E20080704091125/index.html
I gotta say, in the dog-eat-dog world of business, men may protect each other’s sins, but they are certainly not above eating the smaller dogs below them and/or then standing on their backs long and hard to get what they need and want. With men, it’s called being aggressive or assertive; with women, it’s called being bitchy.
One could just as easily describe this incident as one top dog was protecting her turf by being aggressive toward an up-and-coming alpha. Women may be more emotional when asserting their power, this is about power, not just being bitchy and emotional an raggy. The Alpha Female phenomenon is just as real and valid in nature and as a metaphor for keeping a top spot = survival.
Other than that, I have to agree with lildb. One of the people was in the power seat, and she used that position to knock down another blogger. I’m not sure of the details other than that. Describe that situation in gender neutral terms – if possible – and we’d have an accurate rendering of the situation, it would seem.
…men may protect each other’s sins, but they are certainly not above eating the smaller dogs below them and/or then standing on their backs long and hard to get what they need and want.
This is completely inaccurate. A Captain of Industry would never eat the small dogs and then stand on their backs. Quite inefficient, not to mention terribly messy. You will never see evidence of puppy entrails or secretions on my trouser cuffs or custom harp seal sandals.
If you join one of my millionaire mindset groups, you will learn the real secrets of the male dominated workplace… and how reach your full potential using three key words that will assure your rise to the top.
See you on the veranda!
RQ
I’m glad you’re writing about this.
To quickly digress, I think some very mean things were said about Jenny afterwards which was very sad as she’s super nice.
It’s unfortunate that there are people who choose to play the “mean girls” card instead of just being cool. I don’t get it. It especially boggles my mind as hello! We’re ADULT WOMEN. I disassociate myself from ALL of that behavior so in effect, I’m not really around women who are cruel to one another. I don’t have patience for that crap.
Disassociating your self from something doesn’t make it less true. Which women are you around then?
This kind of teeth and claw behavior is rooted in the powerlessness some women feel when in group situations.
The men on here know the truth. We need to have each others backs more girls.
I want to know where you all find groups of women who are these perfect, heraldic angels. . . other than one or two SINGLE, ALONE, non-group based friends, I’ve never found such a woman and am interested! …which is why I’ve always found the very best friends to be the ones who don’t know each other and don’t hang out in passals…
Oh, and trust me, men behave similarly, just with different methods. I’ve seen men used humor and thinly veiled ribbing to establish alpha dog relationships in groups. Everyone likes power.
How do we deal? Refuse to participate UNLESS it’s to thoughtfully endeavor to help defuse the toxic nonsense.
Which is what you’ve done here.
Thanks Mom!
Or is it Mother Superior?
Or God?
Possibly the finest post on this topic I’ve read, and I think the very first time I’ve been willing to comment at all.
I saw and grasped the situation as it unfolded. I probably added to the tension, mainly possibly because I know the blogger (in real life) and if she’s ever done anything mean girl, I’d be surprised. So of all the people and bloggers, to hear that Dooce took something she wrote as cruel was surprising. She’s a humor writer, and her humor is usually completely self-directed. She isn’t funny at anyone else’s expense, instead she is funny at her own for others’ benefit.
So IMO?
I think a lot of “mean” is actually “misunderstanding.”
And if we did more asking and discussing, and less accusing and behind-the-back bitching, we’d all do better.
I think men can be as exclusionary and cruel as women, possibly in different ways, though. I think women go right for the heart or jugular, and men tend to more go for the knees.
I think women often operate on the idea of “scarcity of resources” so they try to eliminate competition. Men operate on the idea of hierarchy so they try to beat competition.
Of course I encounter it, but I know where this sort of thing thrives, and under what conditions and I try to avoid it, then if I can’t I try to prevent or diffuse.
Responding to commenters, I’ve encountered “mean girls” and “mean boys” in the corporate/legal world. I know men who will take down others by any means possible. I know women who will too. But most are supportive of one another. The bitchy women syndrome has never been true for me in the work place.
All other Dooce related drama aside, I actually encountered a “mean girl” at BlogHer. I heard comments that weren’t directed at me, but at my friends, and I. was. furious. When I called the mean girl on her behavior later in a private message, she responded by trying to hurt my cousin. Oy. I didn’t know people like that still existed outside of junior high. Generally I try to avoid drama AT ALL COSTS, but I find it hard to just step aside when someone is talking smack about people I love.
If one can’t say anything nice….
One should just calmly drink coffee and regroup. Life’s too short for angsty drama (unless it’s one’s family, that is)
Barbara
“This is completely inaccurate. A Captain of Industry would never eat the small dogs and then stand on their backs. ”
I didn’t say that it was or wasn’t successful according to any particular definition of success, but it does happen. That’s completely accurate.
Great discussion, folks. I think this remark from Julie Pippert gets to the heart of the matter: “And if we did more asking and discussing, and less accusing and behind-the-back bitching, we’d all do better.” And I would also add that if we all minded our own business more instead of catapulting ourselves into other people’s issues, that might also help.
Elisa, interesting point about internalization. I’m suggesting that we make a concerted effort to buck the stereotype and stop the trend. Is that still internalizing the catfight label? To take ownership of the OPPOSITE of catfighting? I’m not sure.
Kristen: My comment was not so much in response to your very productive message for everyone to get some perspective and not contribute to the drama, it was more in response to comments I’ve seen here and elsewhere that include statements that this is just what happens when women interact. I simply reject that wholesale. This is what happens, on occasion, when humans interact. It doesn’t define our gender. It doesn’t define bloggers. It doesn’t define the Internet. And we can all, men and women, contribute to making the blogosphere, internet and world at large a better, more positive place!
End sermon :)
Elisa, great clarification, and a good summary of your post. I hope the other commenters will go check it out. :)
It is nice to read something from someone who has no ties to either Dooce or Jenny. I totally appreciate your perspective and I also want to reiterate what others have said that I think (3rd handedly as I was not in the room, nor there) that it was a ridiculous abuse of power and I think it’s even more ridiculous that Dooce’s followers have that kind of power. Period.
The cattyness exists everywhere, at all ages and all genders – it’s just dealt with differently and there will always be people who feed into it, and those who thoughtfully observe.
Thank you for being the latter. Great Post.
Great comment, Carrie. The thing about power is that people only have it if we give it to them.
Thoughts?
Elisa, you’re my new personal hero!
Becca, how kind! Your comment just totally made my day (which up to now has been kind of frustrating because i’m just not getting everything done I expected to today,. you know how that goes?) So thanks!
When stuff like this happens, sometimes you should analyse it/try to explain it as you did which was interesting and good to do. And sometimes you should do something else too: laugh. Just don’t take it all too seriously becuase some women just never become women, they stay stupid teenage girls and still fret over the stupid petty things because that’s always what they have done, and doing something new, acting like a ‘grown-up’ is just not what they are used to. And may never be.