Fired With or Without Cause… Is This Fair?
January 8, 2008 by Darlene McDaniel
Filed under Jobs
The Odd Blog Couple is a new addition to the Business Channel here at B5media. The idea is for two disparate bloggers on the business channel to come together and post about the same topic. Kind of a point/counterpoint thing. Here is my first addition of this new category. Ren Garcia over at Accounting Solver wrote a post today called How do you account for getting fired from your job without cause? Is this fair? Here’s my spin…
“In some countries, you cannot be fired or released from your job without cause. In the US, you often can be. Is this fair?”
Here is some foundational information on this topic I found online on the ABA Journal called, You’re Fired, Those words say the same thing in any language, but their legal meaning may vary drastically from country to country.
Here are some highlights from this article:
1. It’s a common occurrence at all types of companies: Supervisors decide to let an employee go. And while the prudent thing might be to confer with counsel on possible legal ramifications, the reality is that firings, like hirings, generally are accepted as part of the routine fabric of corporate operations.
But if the employment relationship crosses national boundaries, there may be little about it that is routine. Instead, the question of which jurisdiction’s law governs any number of employment issues hiring and firing, privacy, benefits, immigration, discrimination can quickly become complicated enough to intimidate even experienced practitioners. In the field of international employment law, say experts, it’s crucial to recognize what you don’t know.
2. “What’s really key, … is to recognize that there are enormous differences in the law and the procedures and the whole approach to dealing with employment law in most non-U.S. jurisdictions.”
3. …The established U.S. legal principle of at-will employment–which says that either the employer or employee may terminate their relationship at any time, absent an express agreement to the contrary–is not widely recognized in Europe or other regions.
My intial take on this question is that it is fair for people in the US to be treated differently than those in other countries. Why you may ask? Because, I don’t think we should regulate to other countries their employment practices. I do believe that ALL employees in any given US company (headquartered on American soil), should be treated the same, no matter where they work, foreign or domestic. Unfortunately, that is not the way it is. I do however have a recommendation for US companies doing business on foreign soil.
My recommendation: US companies need to do their homework. Find out about the employment law practices in countries they choose to do business. Ensure that their is an agreement between the organizations and the country on how issues like this should be handled. We sometimes, as Americans operate with tunnel vision and make decisions based on our vantage point. It is not fair for employees in the same organization to be treated differently, but given the “rights” of other nations, and their policies, it can not be changed until we work with those countries and establish company policies that are fair for ALL people. Companies in US should not be allowed to get away with firing people without cause. But until “we the people” find ways to hold US companies accountable for how employees are treated, it will not change.
Here’s an additional post for you to consider, How To Explain An Unjust Termination. Leave your comments and tell me what you think.
Darlene- very interesting topic and very close to home for me. I was with a software company when my boss called me in to “fire” me. Rationale was a trumped up case of not getting along with a co-worker even though California is a “without cause” state. I found out much later that the boss simply had a different vision which didn’t include my position, but apparently felt he needed a “reason”- which prompted looking for one. I would have more readily accepted a “without cause” organizational change reason which would have left my record unblemished and free to seek out other work with the same company. I did try to find other work with that company but the “reason” hunting hurt me. So, “without cause” is OK- just be honest and clear about the rationale for letting people go.
In the Philippines, there is a National Labor Relations Commission which operates as a quasi-appeals court for employee-employer relations. Any employee can file a firing case and the government provides pro bono counsel. The fly in the ointment is the jousting is not equal. The corporations can hire expensive high caliber lawyers, the employee has a lawyer who has no other incentive than he is doing a civic duty.
Hey Bob! Thanks for stopping by and sharing your story. I appreciate your willingness to do so because I know there are others who have been through a similar experience. It is a difficult thing to lose your job with or without cause. It would be refreshing to have leaders in organizations stand up and be courageous and to be honest with employees about what is really going on in the organization.
Rather than make up reasons, and damage people, and reputations hiring managers (bosses) need to reevaluate this process of terminating employees. Until they are held accountable, things in the US will not change. Who holds them accountable? Not sure, but personal integrity would be a start. Thanks for sharing Bob!
Welcome Ren! Thank you for your story as well. It is a sad state of affairs when your livelihood is left to an attorney who has no vested interest in whether you win or lose.
I like the idea that employees can file a case because of a termination. We would have to open up thousands of courts and train more lawyers in America if we had options like what you describe. Thanks for the story!
Where I live in Germany, the employment laws are strong in the favor of employees, which is good. However, IMHO the economy here lacks a certain dynamic aspect that is found in the US economy. I think it is a matter of perspective as to which is better. Personally, I’ve grown up under the belief that there is no such thing as job security so plan accordingly. For me, I at-will employment and “without cause” work just fine.
Hi Ali! Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate your comment regarding Germany. And your comment around “no job security”. I love to hear more about why “without cause” works for you. Do share!
You’ve covered some interesting facts, Darlene. I’ve discovered, through personal experience, that an employer will adjust firing facts to meet their needs. In my case, I would have preferred the new manager (the one who hired me retired) to have been honest and given me the true reason. He said it had nothing to do with my work…I was doing a great job. They were simply doing some reorganization and changing the qualifications for my position. Anyway, I went on to other things and didn’t bother to fight it.
Hi Mary Emma, Thanks for stopping by tonight. One question, maybe two… Did you apply for another job after that job? If so, what did you put on the application about why you left the job? Did you say you were fired?
Hi Darlene,
I applied for another job after that, but I don’t recall that the application asked why I left the previous job. I would have said, I think, that due to reorganization in the company, qualifications for my job changed. (That was the reason I was given.) Incidentally, the new person they hired didn’t have those qualifications I supposedly needed! He was a male and younger, so I was told I could have fought it due to discrimination (age and sex). But I decided it wasn’t worth the bother since working conditions wouldn’t be pleasant in that situation and they really were changing the nature of the job duties. However, the new manager did give me a nice termination package. (To stop me from bringing discrimination charges?) Concerning that next job I applied for, I was told I was “overqualified.” Was that a nice term for “too old,” having more knowledge and experience than the person doing the hiring, or what?
Mary Emma, Thanks for coming back and giving more details. I am sorry that you went through all of that in the workplace. I know you know, that unfortunately, there are way to many stories like yours.
I have to wonder if this is what launched you into your home business ventures. Thanks again for coming back and answering my questions. You know you are welcome anytime!!
Darlene, losing this position didn’t launch me into home business ventures, but took me back to them so that I concentrated on them more intently. Nowadays I always have something going in the background even when I work for someone else. Both my husband and I have found it’s a good idea to have a back-up in today’s economic world.