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“So then, do tell, how is it your “Balanced” approach helps “exposes the specific things that are said to be happening”?”

First, I wonder, (and I normally don’t point out grammatical errors and such, because it is, after all, the internet, but) why did you add an “s” to my “expose” when it actually made the sentence you were forming make less sense? (That is neither here nor there, just curious.)

In answer to that question, exactly how I said. People come in and say “This happened to me and I felt this way about it”. Other members weigh in on whether or not the cited behavior seems appropriate or inappropriate, healthy or unhealthy and how they would feel if the same was done to them. Anyone that has been in Mary Kay has an experience. Some good, some bad. For the good, we want to know what went right. For the bad, we want to know what went wrong. If possible, we try to come up with ideas that will help make people joining Mary Kay less susceptible to the abuse that has already happened to other people. In some cases, the discussion leads to things that Mary Kay could change to make it more difficult for people to victimize women. In other cases, we offer advice to those considering (or already in) Mary Kay that hopefully will keep them from being victimized.

“Although there are exceptions, the vast majority of your readers believe the Mary Kay Cosmetics opportunity is the most wonderful thing they’ve experienced in a long time.”

How do you know what the vast majority of my readers believe? How do you know what any of my readers believe? How many of them have said, “I believe the Mary Kay Cosmetics opportunity is the most wonderful thing I’ve experienced in a long time.”?

Regardless, perhaps you could help me with this. You see, I don’t control (in any way) who reads my site. The “vast majority” that you speak of do indeed seem to have had a positive experience with Mary Kay. However, it seems that the people who might be willing to offer other points of view are hard to reach. It seems that Pink Truth does not interact with any websites that don’t agree with the “total annihilation to Mary Kay” sentiment they promote there. Perhaps you could wage a similar campaign there that you do everywhere else. You know, the one where you go, “blah blah blah visit Pink Truth” except more like, “blah blah blah visit Balanced Mary Kay”. Tell them that we are all ears. Some of them have already stopped by and we have had what I consider to be some of the most beneficial conversations with them.

You see, when people who have differing views on the same subject have a rational conversation about that subject, they usually can come to a better understanding of that subject. We actually want to hear the stories. We want the experiences. Good or bad, as the White Stripes say, “Every single one’s got a story to tell”. Now of course, Jack White also says that he doesn’t want to hear about it in that song, but we do.

“Heck, one of your posters argues the MK MLM isn’t even an MLM because she can show you book and verse, in the company material, where it says Mary Kay is not an MLM!”

While I am glad you are following my site so closely, in the interest of full disclosure, you should mention that we discussed that back and forth. By most definitions of MLM, Mary Kay would be considered one, when Mary Kay says that they are not, they say, “Mary Kay is not a multi-level or “pyramid” company.” In other words, they are trying to distance themselves from the negative connotation associated with that name because of pyramid schemes that call themselves MLM. If you consider some of the outrageous things that I have allowed you to say, you should consider moving away from your glass house before you “go tossin’ your stones around”. If anything, this demonstrates that people can say whatever they want, but should be expected to explain why they think what they think, feel what they feel and believe what they believe. Something that, to date, you have been unwilling to do.

“I’m talking here about the wonderful women (like your wife and mine) who enter the cult and at some point realize they’re entrapped in a maze of manipulation; they suddenly realize they are doing some unethical things they’d never have considered doing if not for the influence of the MK MLM cult.”

I don’t think I can stress this strongly enough. Please, DO NOT presume to speak for my wife like that. Perhaps your wife found herself entrapped in a maze of manipulation. Perhaps she suddenly realized she was doing some unethical things that she never would have considered. Perhaps she feels that it was a cult mentality that led her to do so. You certainly allude to it often enough. But that does not mean my wife does.

“These are the women who at some point after their first MK event, begin to wonder why Christ wants them to sell Mary Kay Cosmetics as part of His mission for them.”

Sorry, just had to pause on this one!!! Do you actually know people that think “Christ wants them to sell Mary Kay Cosmetics as part of His mission for them”!!! That is phenomenally absurd. Don’t get me wrong, with some of the extremes that I have heard of self-proclaimed “Christians” reaching (abortion clinic bombers come to mind) this certainly seems feasible, but you actually know people that believe this?

“It’s, I believe, epiphanies like this combined with other realizations that prompt these women to simply say “this isn’t me, I’m out-a-here”!”

I should certainly hope so!

“You think the problem is largely individuals.”

YUP!

“And you keep on banging your drum, all the time presenting yourself as being interested in a fair examination of the entire MK phenomenon.

Yet you can’t even (or refuse to) define what is a victim of the MK MLM. Fffpppptttttt”

Listen to yourself. Read your post again. You are talking about a mysterious, cult-like “fog” that comes over “the vast majority” of women that get involved with Mary Kay. I feel like I am reading a transcript for the next episode of Lost. The one where all the survivors get hypnotized into forgetting all their values, ethics and morals by some new mysterious force that gets a hold of them and wont let go. Frankly, it sounds like you are creating a world where it is not your wife’s fault for whatever she did wrong, it is not your fault for allowing her to do so on your dime and the only one to blame is a mysterious, faceless “phenomenon”. But since you can’t make the ends meet, you are challenging me to do so for you. And, somehow, if I can’t do that for you, I am the one that is wrong?

Like I have said: Entertaining? Yes. Of any real value? No.

I’m “killing you” because I refuse to live in your make believe world where everything is someone else’s fault.

What we don’t seem to agree about is the (per my perception) larger number of women who join the cult, get deeply enmeshed and captured by the manipulation tactics (i.e., misuse of matters of faith, frontloading, increasing family debt surreptitiously, attempt to undermine marriages, programming participants toward less self esteem , etc., etc., (we could go on and on). I’m talking here about the wonderful women (like your wife and mine) who enter the cult and at some point realize they’re entrapped in a maze of manipulation; they suddenly realize they are doing some unethical things they’d never have considered doing if not for the influence of the MK MLM cult. I believe this second group comprises the vast majority of MK MLM participants; they’re deep in the fog and while there, do some strange things they eventually become very ashamed of doing. The key is these women would not have ever considered doing these things if not for the influence of the cult-like sisterhood.

Let’s face it, the felons who enter and leave MK are not in a fog (I’d guess for the most part); they’re going to engage in unscrupulous behavior regardless of the manipulation their exposed to.

The other group is the women like most any dedicated wife, mother, professional; the woman who is dedicated to her family and understands the virtues of a strong faith. These are the women who at some point after their first MK event, begin to wonder why Christ wants them to sell Mary Kay Cosmetics as part of His mission for them. It’s, I believe, epiphanies like this combined with other realizations that prompt these women to simply say “this isn’t me, I’m out-a-here”! It is this group of women who would have never committed the acts that eventually cause them to feel shame if not for the “opportunity.” It is these women, the larger portion of all IBCs, who would have never considered doing some of the things they’ve done in MK, if it’d not been simply for their engulfment in the fog. These women are victims of the MK MLM. They are not merely victims of a director, national, etc, they are the victims of the MK MLM, the entity, the business paradigm. Yes, the business “opportunity” promulgated by Mary Kay Cosmetics Corporate is the most lethal carcinogen in the entire cult.

You think the problem is largely individuals.

I believe the problem is largely institutional.

And you keep on banging your drum, all the time presenting yourself as being interested in a fair examination of the entire MK phenomenon.

Yet you can’t even (or refuse to) define what is a victim of the MK MLM. Fffpppptttttt

You’re killing me here Dave.

Blessed

Shocking! Your predictability amazes me!!

Which one of us is the wind up toy??

(just look at all of your responses to me for the answer to that question… still not sure? It’s you! Surprised? I’m not!)

I am sure that you are not suggesting that I called your experience concocted!

Nothing could be further from the truth!

In fact, one might wonder how I could possibly call your experience “concocted” when you have not even shared your experience!!

In fact, one does wonder that. I do.

I said your “offense” is outrageously concocted. As in, you haven’t ever really explained the cause of your offense. You just constantly compare Mary Kay to other things you don’t like (or at least presumably don’t like) and leave us to guess what Mary Kay did to you and these other women you claim to be speaking for.

Judi, I hate to say, “I told you so”, but… (and, by the way, I am not saying that you did not believe me) …blessed would prefer to lob vague accusations against the company. He knows that if he, like you, tells us that someone lied to his wife, manipulated her, or any of the other things that we are all aware have happened, we will do as we did with you. Tell you how sorry we are that happened to you, and publicly display how outrageous this behavior is/was, so we can hopefully prevent it from happening again.

Blessed is not interested in helping in this way. He prefers his own renegade brand of unintelligible, insulting rants that serve more of a benefit as entertainment than any sort of practical help to those that may be in danger of being victimized by someone similar to the one that victimized his wife.

At Balanced Mary Kay, we try to actually help expose the specific things that are said to be happening so that people who are being lied to have a point of reference to say, “this is not what I was told…” and hopefully avoid the disaster that someone else already experienced.

It is my opinion that the latter is more effective.

He prefers his way.

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Some think I (and others like me) are “entertainingly obstinate” and, further, believe our testimonies about victimization by the Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM are “concocted.” Yea, really, “concocted”! Believe it or not, there are folks out there who describe our experiences in this way. And brace yourself, the sources of these descriptions are not limited to squeaky pitched teethy consultants still high from the infusion of whatever it is they ingest during the “awesome” yearly trip to the pink mecca for the foggy peddling of opportunities and dreams…. No, some who say this stuff (i.e., “concocted”) actually present themselves as “balanced.”

Who would’a ever thunk a balanced presenter would call our experiences “concocted”? Gee?

As much as we may enjoy presenting our (the wife and me) “I story,” I think we’re gonna hold off that much longer. Ya see, Dave, it seems apparent this gets under your skin. Your rants remind me of the little wind-up toys we use to get out of the Captain Crunch cereal boxes: easy to wind up and fun to watch BBBBZZZZZZ across the table!

So, I’m not gonna publish anything more about our story for, well, a real long, long time. Come on Dave…
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Did I say that was bad?

Is it bad?

Perhaps I am one of those people that don’t mind being entertained at my own expense?!

But was I wrong?

Are you here for anything other than being entertainingly obstinate in your outrageously concocted offense at a company that sells skin care and beauty supplies?

Com’on Dave, am I all that bad?

Blessed

You know I love the comments you leave on our blog Balanced Mary Kay! You have a great ability to express yourself and what happened to you. You also have a great ability to ask questions with the genuine hope of getting answers. I admire that. I hope that you would know how I feel about these questions you asked from reading the blog, so I will assume that you are asking for the sake of Sean’s readers that have not made it over to the blog yet! And for that, I thank you.

“…do you think that there are those higher up in the MK sales force that have manipulated, lied, abused some IBCs?

Yes

“If so, do you think that MKC should hold these higher ups accountable?

Yes, to the extent that they legally can.

Is MKC accountable at all for allowing these women to abuse someone else?

This question can mean a lot of things… Should the be held accountable legally? In what way? Should the company be held accountable ethically? Who would be the one to hold them accountable? Regardless, I would say the answer depends on the severity of the abuse. Promoting the use of a sales script? Not so much. Lying about inventory requirements? Definitely. So you see, that particular question is a little too vague. The way it is worded now, I would have to say, yes and no.

I have no problem answering your questions. You are asking, “Has abuse happened, and if so, should Mary Kay Corporate share the blame?”

To which I have no problem saying, yes, abuse has happened, and on a case by case basis, Mary Kay may or may not be to blame and may or may not be able to be held liable.

What he is trying to bait me into saying is that Mary Kay is, by default, victimizing women. That they intentionally set up their distribution system in such a way that the system itself inherently victimizes women.

You will notice that when I try to pin him down on exactly what he is asking me, he “squirms out” of answering. Even to the extreme of asking me to tell him what he is asking me!?!?!

He does not want to know what I think. He wants me to say something that he can twist into something else. I am not here to play that game. It may be entertaining to you… and that is fine. But it does not benefit anyone, so I will be the “partypooper” and not play along with him.

Further, I would not expect to see his “story” anytime soon. I can all but guarantee you that no one will ever see that story. He is here because he likes the idea of entertaining people like you at the expense of people like me. Telling his story will not benefit him, so he will never do it.

Hope that clarifies why I am being stubborn about him clarifying what he is asking me before I answer it. Again, thanks for popping by over here!