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	<title>Knuckle Curve &#187; harold_baines</title>
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		<title>Hall of Fame Voting: A Closer Look</title>
		<link>http://www.everyjoe.com/knucklecurve/hall-of-fame-voting-a-closer-look/</link>
		<comments>http://www.everyjoe.com/knucklecurve/hall-of-fame-voting-a-closer-look/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Young</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fame]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[Okay, here&#8217;s the full vote. My thoughts below the table&#8230;

2008 Hall of Fame Vote


Player
Votes
Pct




Courtesy MLB.com.




Rich Gossage
466
85.8%


Jim Rice
392
72.2%


Andre Dawson
358
65.9%


Bert Blyleven
336
61.9%


Lee Smith
235
43.3%


Jack Morris
233
42.9%


Tommy John
158
29.1%


Tim Raines
132
24.3%


Mark McGwire
128
23.6%


Alan Trammell
99
18.2%


Dave Concepcion
88
16.2%


Don Mattingly
86
15.8%


Dave Parker
82
15.1%


Dale Murphy
75
13.8%


Harold Baines
28
5.2%


Rod Beck
2
0.4%


Travis Fryman
2
0.4%


Robb Nen
2
0.4%


Shawon Dunston
1
0.2%


Chuck Finley
1
0.2%


David Justice
1
0.2%


Chuck Knoblauch
1
0.2%


Todd Stottlemyre
1
0.2%


Jose Rijo
0
0%


Brady Anderson
0
0%



As promised, my take:

The voters finally stopped screwing Goose Gossage. This business about Bruce Sutter paving the way for him is absolute garbage. Gossage came first and was a better pitcher.
They completely dropped the ball on Tim Raines. There is no way in Hades that Jim Rice was a better player than Raines. Why folks in charge of this sort of [...]<p>Post from: <a href="http://www.everyjoe.com/knucklecurve">Knuckle Curve</a></p>
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, here&#8217;s the full vote. My thoughts below the table&#8230;</p>
<table style="border: 0px none ; padding: 6px; background-color: rgb(234, 234, 234); width:70%; font-size: 10pt;">
<caption>2008 Hall of Fame Vote</caption>
<thead>
<tr>
<th>Player</th>
<th>Votes</th>
<th>Pct</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tfoot>
<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="font-size:8pt;padding-top:6px;">Courtesy MLB.com.</td>
</tr>
</tfoot>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Rich Gossage</td>
<td>466</td>
<td>85.8%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jim Rice</td>
<td>392</td>
<td>72.2%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Andre Dawson</td>
<td>358</td>
<td>65.9%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Bert Blyleven</td>
<td>336</td>
<td>61.9%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Lee Smith</td>
<td>235</td>
<td>43.3%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jack Morris</td>
<td>233</td>
<td>42.9%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Tommy John</td>
<td>158</td>
<td>29.1%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Tim Raines</td>
<td>132</td>
<td>24.3%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Mark McGwire</td>
<td>128</td>
<td>23.6%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Alan Trammell</td>
<td>99</td>
<td>18.2%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Dave Concepcion</td>
<td>88</td>
<td>16.2%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Don Mattingly</td>
<td>86</td>
<td>15.8%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Dave Parker</td>
<td>82</td>
<td>15.1%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Dale Murphy</td>
<td>75</td>
<td>13.8%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Harold Baines</td>
<td>28</td>
<td>5.2%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Rod Beck</td>
<td>2</td>
<td>0.4%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Travis Fryman</td>
<td>2</td>
<td>0.4%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Robb Nen</td>
<td>2</td>
<td>0.4%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Shawon Dunston</td>
<td>1</td>
<td>0.2%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Chuck Finley</td>
<td>1</td>
<td>0.2%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>David Justice</td>
<td>1</td>
<td>0.2%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Chuck Knoblauch</td>
<td>1</td>
<td>0.2%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Todd Stottlemyre</td>
<td>1</td>
<td>0.2%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jose Rijo</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Brady Anderson</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0%</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p>As promised, my take:</p>
<ul>
<li>The voters finally stopped screwing Goose Gossage. This business about Bruce Sutter paving the way for him is absolute garbage. Gossage came first and was a better pitcher.</li>
<li>They completely dropped the ball on Tim Raines. There is no way in Hades that Jim Rice was a better player than Raines. Why folks in charge of this sort of thing fail to recognize this is beyond me.</li>
<li>Speaking of outfielders, if Andre Dawson is a legitimate borderline candidate, then Dave Parker deserves <em>much</em> more serious consideration than he&#8217;s getting.</li>
<li>Jack Morris was not a better player than Alan Trammell. Sorry, he just wasn&#8217;t.</li>
<li>How many years will it take Lee Smith to overcome the idiocy that kept Gossage out for so long?</li>
</ul>
<p>Sigh. I&#8217;ve probably missed some others, but I hate to work myself up over this stuff. I just would like to see the folks in charge of these things do a better job of it. Is that so much to ask? Apparently it is.</p>
<p>Post from: <a href="http://www.everyjoe.com/knucklecurve">Knuckle Curve</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		</item>
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		<title>Hall Pass for the Hawk?</title>
		<link>http://www.everyjoe.com/knucklecurve/hall-pass-for-the-hawk/</link>
		<comments>http://www.everyjoe.com/knucklecurve/hall-pass-for-the-hawk/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Young</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fame]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Personalities]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[dwight_evans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ernie_banks]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[Michael Knisley and John Shea debate Andre Dawson&#8217;s Hall of Fame credentials over at ESPN. Dawson, to my way of thinking, is the very definition of a borderline candidate. Check out his list of Top 10 most similar players according to Baseball-Reference:

Billy Williams (133 OPS+)
Tony Perez (122)
Dave Parker (121)
Al Kaline (134)
Harold Baines (120)
Dwight Evans (127)
Ernie Banks (122)
Dave Winfield (130)
Luis Gonzalez (119)
Vada Pinson (110)

As a point of reference, Dawson&#8217;s OPS+ was 119. Anyway, five of these guys have been enshrined in Cooperstown: Williams, Perez, Kaline, Banks, and Winfield. Of those five, three were clearly superior players: Williams, Kaline, and Winfield.
The other [...]<p>Post from: <a href="http://www.everyjoe.com/knucklecurve">Knuckle Curve</a></p>
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Knisley and John Shea <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof08/news/story?id=3173605">debate Andre Dawson&#8217;s Hall of Fame credentials</a> over at ESPN. Dawson, to my way of thinking, is the very definition of a borderline candidate. Check out his list of <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp.cgi?I=dawsoan01:Andre+Dawson&#038;st=career">Top 10 most similar players</a> according to Baseball-Reference:</p>
<ol>
<li>Billy Williams (133 OPS+)</li>
<li>Tony Perez (122)</li>
<li>Dave Parker (121)</li>
<li>Al Kaline (134)</li>
<li>Harold Baines (120)</li>
<li>Dwight Evans (127)</li>
<li>Ernie Banks (122)</li>
<li>Dave Winfield (130)</li>
<li>Luis Gonzalez (119)</li>
<li>Vada Pinson (110)</li>
</ol>
<p>As a point of reference, Dawson&#8217;s OPS+ was 119. Anyway, five of these guys have been enshrined in Cooperstown: Williams, Perez, Kaline, Banks, and Winfield. Of those five, three were clearly superior players: Williams, Kaline, and Winfield.</p>
<p>The other two guys? Banks spent half his career playing shortstop and hit 500+ homers. Yeah, Dawson spent half his career playing center field and fell a little short of the mystical, magical home run total. He also didn&#8217;t get quite the same media coverage in Montreal that Banks did in Chicago, although of course that changed later, when Dawson played for the Cubs. Unfortunately that version of Dawson &#8212; MVP in &#8216;87 notwithstanding &#8212; isn&#8217;t the one that was headed toward a potential Hall of Fame career before his knees stopped doing what knees are supposed to do.</p>
<p>That leaves us with a lot of really good players. Parker basically is the same as Perez, only he got hurt, had a drug problem, and didn&#8217;t play for the Big Red Machine. Baines was a brilliant hitter, but thanks to the American League&#8217;s designated hitter experiment, he wore a mitt in just 81 games over his final 15 big-league seasons. Make him play the field, like in baseball, and he&#8217;s not even part of the discussion.</p>
<p>Luis Gonzalez is still playing, but he doesn&#8217;t fit my idea of a Hall of Famer. That is a poor justification for keeping someone out, but I&#8217;m sure I could find better reasons if I looked. Oh, here: Dwight Evans. He was a much better player than Gonzalez, and he&#8217;s not in Cooperstown. In fact, you could make a very strong case for Evans over Dawson (or Perez, for that matter).</p>
<p>Evans&#8217; main problems were that he played alongside flashier guys (i.e., Jim Rice) and that his career year coincided with a players strike. Evans still has the Fenway thing working against him (though not to the degree that Rice does), but I&#8217;d be more inclined to buy into his candidacy than Dawson&#8217;s.</p>
<p>The big issue for me with Dawson is that I find myself making excuses for the guy as a way to get him into the Hall. Well, if he hadn&#8217;t rotted in Montreal for the first decade of his career. Or if he hadn&#8217;t gotten hurt. The thing is, he did rot in Montreal and did get hurt. If we&#8217;re willing to cut him slack for those &#8220;transgressions,&#8221; then we need to start lowering our standards and admit guys like Dale Murphy and the aforementioned Parker.</p>
<p>If you do that, then what do you tell Bobby Grich, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Alan Trammell, and probably dozens of others? Oh, sorry, you&#8217;re too late; better luck in some other universe&#8230;</p>
<p>Post from: <a href="http://www.everyjoe.com/knucklecurve">Knuckle Curve</a></p>
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